Love of lathes.

[Refugee]

I was wondering if rubber sleeves could be added to the parts of the conventional clips to avoid the clicking.

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks for your interesting suggestion Refugee. Rubber sleeves if possible to add would definitely solve the clicking noise as the metal clips travel over the pulleys but unfortunately would cause other problems?

Metal belt joining clips (alligator clips for example) are surface mounting clips therefore add to the thickness of the belt at the joint; as the clip travels over each pulley it is bound to give a slight "bump". This then for me who is downright picky poses two problems; one is the clicking noise and the second is the number of bumps as the clips travel over five pulleys.

I was reading a few days ago an article regarding "chatter" and could this partly be due to the motor pulses on single phase motors being transmitted to the work being turned setting up chatter? If this is to be taken seriously then what effect would metal clips travelling over metal pulleys have on the finish of the turned work? This is something I've never previously considered but I know it takes little to produce chatter on a lathe?

Stitching a leather belt joint with waxed cord is an excellent way to join such belts and this method has been used since leather belts were introduced. However a tapered glue joint gives all the advantages of a truly endless belt but with the one disadvantage of joint strength. If the tapers are not perfect or the wrong type of glue used or applied wrongly then of course the joint is prone to early failure. I've done a bit of research and found various types of glue has been used over many years with success. Hot hide glue I believe is the oldest type glue used and even today will take a lot of beating and using hot hide glue is something I'm very familiar with. In the States "Barge" glue is commonly referred to and this glue too is as old as the houses but not a glue I'm familiar with. Other glues are more modern such as PVA and Gorilla glue has also been tried with various degrees of success; one guy used Gorilla glue expecting it to give years trouble free service but the joint failed almost immediately under power.

Joining leather belts is not as easy as it would appear for providing drive to machinery. I could take the easy option and add alligator clips after all I was using alligator clips to join huge conveyor belting underground 50 years ago and alligator clips do work; alligator clips come in a number of different sizes. There are also wire clips like staples.

As I say though I'm picky and to go to all the trouble I've just gone to in fully restoring this Lorch I want it to run as quietly and smoothly as possible. I'm trying the hot hide glue method first because I have a stock of hide glue and the proper glue pot; I'm also very interested to try this old technique; if it fails then I've lost nothing and will look to modern types of belting and modern methods of belt jointing; I've already obtained a sample of modern laminated belting so I'll do a bit of experimenting first?

I see fun and games ahead once I start to glue these two belt joints; one belt I can joint on the bench but the second belt might prove to be a load of frustration because not only has it to be jointed on the lathe the belt needs feeding through the head-stock and through the belt adjuster at the counter-shaft; I think I can obtain enough slack by not trying to joint this belt with it round the counter-shaft pulley because the counter-shaft pulley unit is easily removable but I'll no doubt find all the problems later today once I attempt to joint the two belts?

Kind regards, Col.

[Refugee]

The chatter will have several causes.
The tool tip too far from the first clamp screw making it sing.
Bearing wear and you have largely eliminated this with new parts.
Bed wear or the bed not being heavy enough.

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Refugee; yes the points you mention can cause lathe chatter as can many more such as blunt tool or tool not on center height. Experience helps a great deal and a lathe novice would think taking a lighter cut would eliminate chatter but a tool likes to get its nose into the work whereas a light cut can tend to rub rather than cut especially if the tool isn't in good condition and set correctly.

I went into the garage this morning full of enthusiasm in the hope of quickly joining the drive belts; by dinner time I had failed miserably. I had spent ages cleaning up angle iron and strips of metal to use as belt jointing clamps but in practice although I could easily control joint length each time I tried to nip the joint together it moved out of alignment; the hot hide glue was behaving like a lubricant. Grease proof paper was being used to prevent the glue sticking where it wasn't wanted and this paper was mostly to blame for the failure because it was hiding the glued joint. The idea was good but in practice didn't work as expected; I abandoned this method.

After dinner having given the problem some thought I set about making a pair of wooden belt clamps. These two clamps being about as simple as possible to make whilst giving perfect belt alignment. Each clamp was made as a channel to give a friction but not tight fit to the belt sides and two plywood strips were cut to act as pressure pads. Once the wooden clamps were made they were given a heavy coating of "Briwax" wax polish ensuring all the contact surfaces were fully covered then excess wax was removed and the clamps given a good buffing with a clean cloth this also applies to the pressure pads.

The hot hide glue was warmed until it flowed from the brush without breaking into blobs; one end of the belt was inserted into the clamp channel and both belt ends were quickly given a generous coat of hide glue then the joint was quickly clamped. The motor belt could be joined at the bench but the mandrel belt needed jointing on the lathe; I expected the mandrel belt to give me a lot of grief but in fact these clamps worked very well indeed. Both belts are now fully jointed but I'll leave the clamps in place for at least a full day then fingers crossed I've got the belt lengths correct and at last I can try to power the lathe. I've just cleaned the tools and I'm a bit stuck now until the glue hardens; tomorrow I could start sorting the three guards out; the Lorch is just about completed; guards to add and adjustments to be made; check all fasteners then I've got a lovely lathe all ready for some action.

Kind regards, Col.

               

[Alan Douglas]

If the hide glue turns out not to hold, you could perhaps stitch through the glue joint to add extra strength.

[Radio Fixer]

Channel clamps were a neat idea Colin. Lets hope it works else you could get a whipping from a belt end.

Gary

[camallison]

Channel clamps were a neat idea Colin. Lets hope it works else you could get a whipping from a belt end.

Gary

That takes me back a lot of years - the teacher's weapon of choice.

Colin

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Alan D; yes I've seen pictures of such belt stitching and it appears to work.

Thanks Gary; the channel clamps have worked brilliantly because I've just removed them and not only has the hide glue fully set the belt joints are in perfect alignment. All I needed to do was to remove excess glue using a sharp wood chisel and a bit of abrasive paper to finish the joints off.

I've just installed both belts into the lathe and immediately knew one of the belts was going to break because the original joint on the motor belt was starting to let go and sure enough as soon as I pressed the start button the joint let go. I'll have another session after dinner and re-glue this failed joint which is now easy enough that I've got the channel clamps and know how to joint these belts. The new joints I've just made though are so far holding up well and I've been pulling the mandrel belt round by hand wondering if the original joint on this is going to let go now or wait until I've sorted out the motor belt before letting go just to wind me up?

Both belts proved to be perfect length giving nice tension at the highest counter-shaft position and this will allow for future stretching. So near and yet so far but these things are always sent to test me and it would be boring if things went correctly the first time?

It's early days but I feel hot hide glue will prove very successful allowing me to joint these belts quite easily and the channel clamps have proved successful in perfectly aligning the joint. The downside is that hot hide glue is messy and slow but I don't expect to be doing this belt jointing every day. I have found a source of Barge Cement which is also highly rated for leather belt jointing;

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-us...-glue.aspx

I've spent hours browsing the web for leather belt suppliers and the few I have found tend to be expensive. I'm now looking into local equine centers or saddlers who might supply suitable leather; I'm no longer a raw novice regarding leather belts because I can now joint them to make my own which opens up new possibilities. I love these restorations because I'm constantly learning all the time and don't regard a problem as a problem; a problem is a challenge.

I could buy a modern fabricated very strong endless belt for the motor drive and already have the quote for this but where is the fun in doing it this way after all I'm not running a business so having the lathe down isn't a problem but it is a source of entertainment.

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Just looked at that Barge cement Col, and it is unavailable due to import restrictions apparently.

Colin

[Nick]

I've always found "hot glue" rather brittle when set - I'm surprised you're finding it flexible enough for a drive belt joint.

If this is the same stuff, I was always taught its real name was "Pearl Glue" or "Joiners' Pearl Glue" rather than "Hide Glue" - it is made from boiled down bits of cow though...

Many years ago I did a year of a cabinet-maker's apprenticeship and that's what we used when repairing antique chairs etc. Very brittle when set.