Myford ML3 - 21 tooth gear removal

[Yorkie]

Just a few superficial self-opinionated musings as tea-time approaches.

I think lathes are a bit like valve testers - they seem to hold a fascination and a desire of ownership that goes well beyond the use that they're often put to, and all things considered, can be a load of grief. As an aside, I'm nonplussed as to why people hanker after Avo CT160 valve testers with all their known shortcomings - delicate irreplaceable meter, poorly designed fragile irreplaceable oddball wire-wound pot which attempts to emulate a log law track, dodgy thumb-wheel switches etc. Huh? Each to their own, but I do wonder if they ever actually get used for testing valves, or is repairing and restoring them a hobby in its own right? Probably.

I’ve no particular interests in lathes or any other equipment for what they are - only for what they do. Some years ago I was given a small ‘watchmakers’ metalworking lathe (by that I mean a ‘small lathe used by watchmakers’ not a ‘lathe used by watchmakers of small stature’!), which I fettled up and have found has done everything I’ve wanted to do in the way of metalworking.

‘Unimats’ seem to have a cult following in the UK and maybe elsewhere – I know nothing about them or whether they deserve the apparent reputation they enjoy. The only ones I’ve seen have been in an incomplete dilapidated condition and by no stretch of the imagination do they look as though they’ve been owned by anyone who deserves the epithet ‘Model Engineer’, but then that can be said of most second-hand lathes, which invariably seem to have been abused, neglected, and have sundry difficult to obtain bits missing or damaged. Few screw-cutting lathes seem to be complete with their change wheels.

I’d never be in the market for a second-hand lathe – I think they’re time-consuming 'money pits' and something of a liability rather than an asset. There is a plethora of reasonably priced ‘mini lathes’ emanating from the far-east for sale in the UK, of which the Sieg’ brand seems to be held in good regard. Arc Eurotrade fettle the Siegs and at the link below there is an article which featured in Model Engineers Workshop issue 136 by Dave Fenner, and David Clark, editor of Model Engineers' Workshop magazine covering the Super C3 Sieg mini-lathe. (400mm between centres, 180mm swing over the bed with a 4-way turret).

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/...Mini-Lathe

(There are cheaper mini lathes, but the C3 in no dearer than a half decent laptop computer). There’s a popular (by ‘popular’ I mean it’s had 3.4 mill visitors), US website on mini-lathes with a feature on Siegs:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/reviews/Lathes/Sieg_C8/C8.htm

I've attached a couple of pics of a rather nice Lorch lathe owned by an acquaintance of mine, who - among other things - as well as being a skilled model engineer worthy of the name, is also a skilled aero-modeller, as witnessed by the pic of his scale model of a Westland Lysander on approach for landing. It has a wingspan of seven feet so looks quite impressive up in the air. In fact, when it's 100 feet up you'd be hard pressed to tell it from the real deal. (The lathe may look like an ornament - it isn't - it gets put to good use).

[AlanBeckett]

David,

I suppose it depends on what you want to make, how often and how big.
You couldn't have made a Pulley for Rob, and neither could Col, but I could on my Chipmaster, and I did.
Equally, you might have managed to make a new Shaft for my MM, and so could Col, with some careful Fileing, maybe, but I could with the aid of my Chipmaster, Milling Machine and Rotary Table.
These things are unobtainable in the normal sense, as are many 'Spares' for long obsolete equipment. So, should they be abandoned or scrapped for the lack of a simple bit of turning?
I could list lots of other things that I've made replacements for, or repaired, using my Machinery. Of course I don't use it daily, or often even weely at this time of the year, but it's there when I need it.

Alan

[Bushbaby]

David/Alan,
In this instance I agree with both of you in this instance.
With the Unimat, these really aren't worth the fees that are being sought for them as in real sense they really are a 'hobby' lathe.Some may even call them a toy.

The name Unimat is derived from Universal Machine Tool, being a machine that could be used for turning, milling, sawing, drilling, grinding etc. etc. I suppose it could be considered a bigger 'Dremel' of its day.

A few years ago they were very cheap to buy but rarity value has forced the prices up. Who would pay well over a £100 for a Unimat travel steady BUT that is what they sell for because they are so rare.

So therefor this begs the question are these just to be collected or used?? (I believe that there were in the order of 400 add ons so a complete pack in its wooden case fetch well over £1000). If they are to be used (as they should) then I think that I wouldn't pay vastly inflated prices for parts (such as a travel steady) that can be made by the user. I'd rather make my own and have the satisfaction in doing so too.

With older lathes such as the Myford ML1's to 4's, the parts just don't exist so rarity rather than collectability rules the day. However, having said that, parts do become available. I bought (and with great thanks to Kev Hoyland) an old heavy duty lathe stand for my ML3 which I really did not think I would ever find and for modest price too.
In addition, I bought a complete headstock with spindle for the same lathe for £20!
I think its really a case of make do and mend with older lathes to keep them going.

Regards

Rob

[Alan Douglas]

It's always a question if electronic test gear is used for testing radios or for repairing other test gear. Likewise with machine tools. But both categories are so much fun to have around, that I'll take the risk of their "usefulness."

I don't recall the model number of my Unimat, but assuming it's the same, mine was $129 with several free accessories, from Lafayette Radio around 1965. I had the milling attachment and used it as a mill as often as a lathe. It had some quirks and was only useful for small projects. When I stumbled on my present Logan light-industrial lathe I sold the Unimat to a friend. The same man who had the Logan also sold me a mill and a horizontal bandsaw.

CT160s make me wonder also. But I can say the VCM163 is marvelous. I used it a couple of weeks ago to test some 1930-era triodes (50s) at full power which is the only way to separate the sheep from the goats (and I found a number of goats). They all tested good on a lab-grade Hickok.

[Yorkie]

Thanks for your observations guys - all valid points.

I guess it depends on whether one wishes to buy a fully functional lathe, or to spend time restoring and old one, with all that entails - sourcing and buying rare parts and materials to make unobtainable parts (using another lathe), maybe over several months. Clearly many derive much satisfaction from the challenge of so doing (not least Col and Al on this forum), but as I said in my earlier post, such equipment soon becomes a 'money pit' and a hobby in its own right, just as does for example restoring a 'basket case' classic car or motorbike. But then all hobbies and pastimes involve costs which aren't recoverable - it's the price we pay for the enjoyment we derive, which is the other side of the equation.

My little lathe cost me nothing, and apart from a S/H motor, (£20), has cost me nothing to put into use. In the three years or so that I've had it in use, even if instead I'd have bought a mini-lathe, by now, with all the little jobs I've been able to do, it would have paid for itself, and putting the lathe into good order hasn't taken time I could ill afford to have spent on fettling up a real 'basket case'. It's enhance my radio restoration activites rather than detracted from it. It certianly came into its own when I restored my S/H Hameg 203-7 'scope.

As I said in my first post, this is just my own perspective - I don't expect others to concur. Our interests, competence, skills, resources and free time differ. I take my hat off to anyone who spends time, money and skills to reclaim anything, putting it into good order, giving a new lease of life to it, rescuing it from the scrapheap. After all, that's the cornerstone of our hobby of vintage radio and electronics restoration is it not?

Night night all!

[Retired]

Hi,

Well said David. Anyone serious about a hobby puts money second because after all it is the hobby which gives satisfaction not spending the money.

Buying a lathe even a small lathe isn't going to suddenly do all the turning jobs one wishes it to do unless of course it comes with just about every conceivable extra. Tooling which is obviously needed can easily cost a great deal more than paid for the basic lathe.

A novice owning their first lathe will quickly realize there is much more to accurate turning than simply chucking a lump of material; not only is lathe tooling needed but then comes measuring instruments; a cheap and cheerful digital caliper costs around £15 on eBay and with experience even one of these will give extremely accurate results; my cheap caliper is two thou out over its range which is a huge amount in engineering terms but if turning a shaft or spindle to fit a bearing and the bearing is to hand then direct accurate measurement isn't needed; I'd better expand a bit on this or Big Al will be responding; using such a digital caliper it's inaccuracy balances out because if the bearing is measured and size noted then using the same caliper to turn the shaft or spindle there is no reason other than inexperience for the two not to mate with great accuracy. I do this kind of work a lot; when it comes down to it measurement is comparison; as long as the same caliper is used throughout then the caliper is supplying the comparison.

I also have highly accurate micrometers which I do use when I'm turning to a given size; one comes down to one tenth of a thou (0.0001") and this sort of accuracy can be obtained even with a rough lathe; in its basic form all a lathe really does is to spin things.

Woodturners often work to fine limits such as when fitting lids to turned boxes; how satisfying it is to have the skill to turn such a box for the lid to "pop" when removed; I can do this and I know David can and we know how to do this even if we don't have anything to measure with. We achieve such a fit by comparison. Take for example one of these small turned wooden boxes; reduce the blank to round; turn an angled spigot on each end and part off at the joint where the lid meets the body. Mount the lid blank into the scroll chuck and hollow out; turn a parallel spigot then finish where access is allowed.

Remove the part finished lid then chuck the body and again hollow out; now using the lid as a measuring instrument turn to suit the spigot on the lid and with only a little practice it is amazing just accurately the lid can be made to fit giving the loud "pop" as it is removed.

This is only a very basic description but hopefully to a novice using a lathe explains that with practice it's not always necessary to have lots of expensive measuring equipment but I must stress mating parts in this manner does take practice. One thousandth of an inch sounds very small indeed but can make all the difference in the world when it comes to mating items.

David's Lorch Schmidt watchmakers lathe is a beauty and highly usable for vintage radio/TV restoration; this lathe is a precision lathe in every sense and will be a huge asset to David. Alan owns a much larger engineering lathe this being a Colchester Chipmaster which is moving up to industrial type lathes; I used to own an even larger Colchester Triumph and both these Colchesters will possibly turn anything thrown at them in a home workshop in fact I ended up selling my Triumph just because of its size which I still miss a great deal. You can turn small items in a big lathe but you can't turn big items in a small lathe. As Alan rightly says I would have struggled to turn Rob's pulley in my Clarke but although on the limit of the Clarke I think I could have managed it but only because of my lathe experience.

For what it's worth I think Myford lathes and all Myford attachments are very over priced unless of course when I'm selling such kit then the price plummets to scrap value? If I had plenty of space I would still own the Triumph and one of these top quality industrial lathes can still be bought on eBay cheaper than many Myford lathes?

Rambled enough; got to go; visitor just arrived.

Kind regards, Col.

[AlanBeckett]

Interesting young Col. I have two cheapo Digital Verniers, invented incidentally by Moore & Wright, which show exactly the same symtoms as yours. It doesn't matter of course if you use the same one all the time for one job 'cause the parts will still fit. I also have a couple of real M&W Micrometers and a couple of conventional, or should I say Analogue, Verniers and a Height Gauge. They're accurate.

Alan

[Joe]

My digital vernier was 99p plus £4 postage. I've just checked it against a micrometer and it seems accurate, though I can make it read both under and over depending on the pressure applied to it.

- Joe

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Big Al; its a case of you get what you pay for when it comes to wanting accuracy; the digital calipers are brilliant for general use and a huge help for novices unable to read a micrometer which we take for granted.

Sheffield Moore & Wright instruments are top quality as reflected in their price; I have two brand new cased M&W micrometers kindly given to me recently by a close friend and it's a shame to get them dirty but I also have other M&W micrometers which I've owned for many years; for extra accuracy when I want a precision fit I used my Mitutoyo 0"-1" micrometer.

http://www.pgiinc.com/pages/How-to-read-...meter.html

Good point Joe about being able to change the digital vernier reading by simply applying a bit more pressure; micrometers though generally have a ratchet on the end of the thimble eliminating this difference giving constant readings. Where even greater accuracy is required then even heat makes a difference to instruments? For the ultimate precision lapping is employed.

All good fun but for the guy in a home workshop practice overcomes a lot; the best kit in the world isn't much use in the hands of a complete novice?

My Clarke engineering lathe is a decent little performer since it's expensive upgrade but it can and does annoy me in use; everything is so limited in size and the worst thing of all is that the tail-stock is locked using a spanner; how quaint?

Good luck Rob with your lathe restoration; are you going to use Paragon machinery enamel to finish it with?

Kind regards, Col.

[Bushbaby]

Hi Col,
I've already got a few tins of Craftmaster engine grey paint. I agree with Alan, that I should get it running first and then paint afterwards when I know that its working well. Then I shall put my ML1 back together. I dont think I really need both BUT I spent a lot of money on the ML1 which I would like to sell for a pittance so I will probably keep it.

I wish I has more room to use these.

Regards

Rob