Love of lathes.

[Refugee]

The car belt you need is not the timing belt with the blocks on it.
The one on the black lathe on Practical Machinist is a steering servo/alternator belt with the groves running along the length.
Take the motor belt to an independent car part shop and ask them to match one up with it for you.

[Alan Douglas]

I had never heard of "Barge glue" despite having worked with leather for years. It seems to be a brand name. The online description mentions protecting it from freezing, which would indicate that it is a polyvinyl acetate emulsion in water, but the Materials Safety Data Sheets only list three solvents (not the adhesive itself) and it's not water-based. The solvents are the same as what used to be sold by General Cement for gluing radio speakers, essentially model-airplane cement. I suppose it would work on leather, but no better than hide glue, in a dry environment.

There is a PVA adhesive that is not water-based; I used to have some on hand for book repairing. But since there are water-based PVA glues that remain flexible when they cure, I use those now.

[camallison]

Not sure how good it would be for the belt assembly task, but the glue I use for leatherwork is a Titebond glue:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Titebond-Origina..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397822690&sr=8-1&keywords=titebond+glue

Colin

[Retired]

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear of the demise of your cat Lawrence. You do love playing with big boys toys; a 12" hand planer being used by a novice makes me shudder but such machines are sold openly to anyone having the cash; this is now the time of year when the A&E departments can start expecting DIY'ers arriving having awoken from winter?

Excellent idea Refugee; yes I could take along the drive belts to auto spares supplier and get them matched against a "Poly V belt". I misunderstood the term for serpentine belt as used in the states thinking this to be a timing belt but I now think the term simply relates to Poly V belts which are readily available. I could still use old timing belts with the cross teeth because it wouldn't cost anything to experiment with these other than a drop of glue?

Barge cement was also new to me Alan D until I started to browse Practical Machinist forum where it is mentioned many times and it appears to be good stuff?

Thanks for your suggestion Colin regarding Titebond adhesive. Such adhesives are also mentioned on Practical Machinist but unfortunately reports are poor and this even applies to Gorilla Glue which fails miserably if used to join leather drive belts; I've spent hours browsing the web and forums trying to find the best adhesive to use and so far for joining leather drive belts it really comes down to two types of adhesive; hot hide glue and Barge cement; many adhesives actually "creep" whereas hide glue doesn't creep at all.

The rough sketch below shows the drive belt/pulley arrangement and it can be seen that both front and back surfaces of the belt come into direct contact with pulleys. The idler pulley is located very close to the mandrel pulley and this must impose tremendous stresses on the belt joints? I would have cheerfully installed a Poly V drive belt here but unfortunately the belt needs cutting in order to install it then it needs re-joining in the lathe. The Lorch is a brilliant lathe but I think the design could have been better thought out regarding this mandrel drive belt?

I've also been browsing the web looking at various adhesives suitable for plastic/rubber bonding; Loctite "made for plastics" is recommended on Practical Machinist for joining modern poly v type drive belts and this looks ideal;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Loctite-401-x-...ltDomain_3&hash=item1e82e7d40a

Whilst at Rufforth Auto Jumble about a year ago both David and I bought some super strong super glue; the guy selling this glue was giving demonstrations and one demonstration he glued two large steel nuts together using only five dots of glue; a few seconds later he threw the two nuts onto the ground and they remained glued; a second demonstration he joined the ends of some small diameter rubber belting and in a few seconds he asked spectators to pull as hard as they could on the belting to try to break the joint whilst he held part of the belt in his hands; he was pulled from his feet but the joint held; I have this glue but it's in the garage; I'll check what grade it is and post the details.

I'm now slowed down regarding working on the Lorch to finish it off due to the Easter holiday but I'm over the moon to have it working.

Kind regards, Col.

[Yorkie]

I wouldn't have thought that adhesives such as CA ('Super Glue'), Gorilla Glue, Titebond, CA, and the like would be any use at all for joining a leather belt which has to flex in both directions hundreds of times a minute for hours on end. They may all be find for bonding leather onto materials such as wood, plastic, metal and leather to leather, but only in situations where once bonded, the joint isn't then continuously flexed but stays put. They're all rigid when set, and if flexed, I think that such adhesives will fracture into a series of cracks and destroy the integrity of the joint. It seems to me that whatever adhesive is used it would need to be flexible and the only ones that immediately come to mind are Copydex, Evostik, UHU and the like. I'm not saying that any of those would be well suited and I'd also imagine that adhesive on its own without stitching wouldn't last for long. Even 'barge cement' used by saddlers would I think, in most situations be stitched - not simply glued.

In more austere times when people used to walk rather than use cars, and couldn't afford to pay a cobbler to re-sole their shoes, 'Stik-a-soles' were commonplace, which came with a flexible adhesive to bond the plastic soles to the original leather soles of the shoes, and had to flex. If you have a friendly cobbler nearby, it might be worth asking his advice. They all seem to have gone by the wayside except those Timpson shops that repair shoes, cut keys, make name badges and so forth.

As to 'Poly V' belts - which are used on my bandsaw, they're just a flat belt with a series of small V shaped ribs, but can't be used on a flat smooth pulley - they must be used with pulleys that have mating 'Vs'. To quote Goodyear - who own the registered trade mark of Poly V: "The Poly-V® Belt is a thin, multi-v belt with longitudinal V-shaped ribs that mate perfectly with the corresponding sheave grooves".

http://www.goodyearep.com/productsdetail.aspx?id=3880

They come in fixed lengths and can't be joined so are only of use where they can be fitted and removed from the pulleys - not joined in situ.

Ideally, 'link belting' which can be adjusted to length and joined without any special tools and has a continuous length would be the best solution, but I've no doubt that it's prohibitively expensive.

Typical Product Description:

Link Belting can be easily adjusted to a required length by hand without the need for additional tools.
Construction and Features
• High-tech polyurethane links are reinforced with several plies of polyester fabric producing a tough but flexible belt.
• The polyurethane compound has good resistance to chemicals, oil, grease, water and industrial solvents.

Applications:

Ideal product for breakdown situations in industrial and agricultural applications, as machinery can be repaired quickly after a traditional belt failure.
Can also be used in hard to reach areas and threaded into place with out the need for complete machine strip down.

I'm sure you'll have seen the thread on the Practical Machinist Forum Colin, where this topic was discussed: "What leather glue was used to splice belts" ?

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ant...ts-252652/

On my little Lorch lathe I used circular section plastic belt which is cut to the desired length then joined by heating both ends on say a heated flat trowel or whatever - CA glue is useless for joining it - but of course such belting would be no use on a larger lathe such as yours Colin.

Just my own observations - I doubt that any of this adds much towards a permanent solution, but I know that with your usual tenacity (stronger than any glue known to man!), you'll have it sorted, come what may!

[pwdrive]

Col, that Makita beam planer was an import job, we couldn't get them in the UK at that time, one of these Mafells was imported too, it's the largest portable circular I ever used, a very nice circular saw, cuts through 6" oak beams no problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6BBKFZjRh4

Lawrence.

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks for your thoughts on adhesives David. Strange though that modern adhesives fail so rapidly when it comes to jointed leather belts whereas 100 year old hot hide glue does the job without fuss; I've now made three hot hide glued leather belt joints; two from scratch one a repair and so far after running the Lorch for well over an hour with plenty of start/stopping not one of my glued joints has let go and I don't expect them to either? The leather belting I'm using is very old and quite hard so perhaps it will respond to a dose of neatsfoot oil to make it more supple? The only downside regarding using hot hide glue is that it takes time.

I'm not a novice when it comes to using hot hide glue because of my previous experiences in wood veneering where I've used this glue extensively. Hide glue needs careful mixing and handling to obtain optimum performance; overheating the glue will render it mostly useless whereas under heating will make it gel too quickly as it is applied; too much water will also weaken it as will repeated heating cycles so for use in belt jointing I will always mix fresh glue. I use a single electric hot plate to heat the double cast iron pot bringing the water temperature up gradually; a wooden stick placed in the pot can be used to stir the glue as it heats and to watch it's progress; once the glue runs freely from the stick end without breaking into blobs it's ready for use; I had considered heating the two halves of the leather joint but given the belt is only 1" wide I arranged everything close to hand allowing rapid joint making; a 1" wide cheap paint brush quickly applied a flowing coat of glue to the two joint faces which where then very quickly aligned and tightly clamped in position; I can't stress enough that speed of working is needed and also to ensure anything which doesn't require gluing is protected such as the clamps I used which I generously waxed and buffed to a polish otherwise the hide glue will bond the lot together? Leaving the joint to harden over night is a must hence these joints are rather slow to complete but hopefully if done correctly this joint making will prove an infrequent occupation; I hope so because I know leather belting properly joined with hide glue lasts many years giving trouble free performance.

I do however like to experiment and if I can obtain used Poly-V drive belts I can try one out on the motor to counter-shaft because this belt is very easy to change. I fully agree with your comments David regarding Poly-V belts and their application; they are a brilliant invention and superior to ordinary V belts in transmitting drive; their thin section makes them ideal for use on small pulleys and they are above all tremendously strong with extremely little stretching unlike leather belting which stretches quite a lot. As you rightly state David these Poly-V belts are designed to run in matching pulleys these pulleys being machined to close tolerances with matching grooves. Poly-V belts are supplied endless so as supplied would be useless for use on the mandrel of this Lorch. However on Practical Machinist forum success has been achieved in cutting and joining these Poly-V belts using modern super glue designed for rubber and plastic and it is such a joint I would now like to experiment with more out of curiosity than anything else; after all I'm now confident my leather belts are up to the job and are original equipment; unfortunately even leather belting is now very expensive but I'll keep my eyes open.

I remember the stick on soles very well David but didn't these have a habit of peeling at the edges once they had been in use for a while?

I've not looked into "link" belting David only being familiar with the "V" type link belting which would not serve on the Lorch? Thanks also; yes I have seen the thread on Practical Machinist you kindly supplied the link to regarding leather belt joints; a most interesting thread where both hot hide glue and Barge cement appear to come out on top?

Thanks for the video link Lawrence; there is some lovely kit available these days and both the planer and saw you mention are worth their weight in gold when such mobile cutting capacity is required; I could enjoy using both machines.

Yesterday I polished and installed the Lorch guards mostly completing the restoration. The two grease cup lubricators still need installing to the mandrel bearings but both cup caps are missing so if I'm unable to obtain replacements I'll resort to buying a suitable finish tap and make a pair out of brass bar stock. A few adjustments still need to be done and of course the noisy motor needs sorting out. A well tried tip is to take a long screwdriver; place the blade end near the bearing and place the handle to your ear; with the motor under power the bearings can very easily be heard; care is needed because poking around any machine in motion with a screwdriver commands respect. I listened to the racket being emitted by the motor bearings then listened to the mandrel bearings; the mandrel bearings gave a very low rumble which I put down to the rolling element (ball) thrust bearing doing its job; the noise difference between the bearings is unbelievable. When the stores open after the holiday I'll strip the motor and install new bearings and whilst doing this I'll check the operation of the centrifugal switch.

What joy it gives me though to have this Lorch so near completed and not to listen to the constant clicking of metal belt fasteners; I can't wait to hear the Lorch run with a decent motor?

I decided to polish the aluminium guards rather than paint them; had I painted these guards it would have been important to use an etching primer because standard primers tend to let go after a while.

Kind regards, Col.

               

[Yorkie]

Col, that Makita beam planer was an import job, we couldn't get them in the UK at that time, one of these Mafells was imported too, it's the largest portable circular I ever used, a very nice circular saw, cuts through 6" oak beams no problem:

Lawrence.

Impressive bit of kit Lawrence, but probably the most inept operator of such a powerful and potentially dangerous saw I've ever seen. Didn't have the fence hard against the wood - the saw was wobbling all over the place and so was he. His stance was evocative of a drunken sailor - with the correct stance he wouldn't have needed to shuffle about on his feet. I wouldn't let that guy lose with an electric toothbrush let alone a stonking electric circular saw.

Got to be on the short list for a Darwin Award before long!

[Radio Fixer]

So its out with the Solvol Autosol on the guards next Colin as we used to do for motor cycle crankcases

Fabulous restoration though.

Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Good points about safety David.

Just occasionally something really big goes right and today this has happened. This morning I thought I would leave the Lorch alone until the stores open then I could buy a pair of motor bearings? I busied myself with small jobs around home and whilst doing these the Lorch was heavily on my mind.

There was something very strange happening regarding the noisy motor but it was evading me. I had taken a lot of care not only in re-painting this motor but also in fitting the pulley and installing the motor into the lathe; the motor had run up very well on the bench so why had it suddenly started to be so noisy? When I listened to the bearings it sure sounded as though the bearings were on their way out but what's caused this because the motor is fully enclosed so no way has dirt entered the bearings during my ownership; this really started me thinking and it got the better of me.

This afternoon I wandered into the garage with the intention of finding out what the noise problem was once and for all at least if I stripped the motor I could obtain the two bearing numbers so within minutes the motor was back on the bench but now I had an open mind and started a close inspection; the fan cover and fan were quickly removed but as I spun the shaft I thought these bearings feel good because I couldn't detect any roughness. As I twisted the pulley to and fro I felt something untoward and suddenly it struck me what the noise was; I checked the pulley grub screw and it was no longer tight although I had nipped it down?

Now I really did nip this grub screw down using a lot of force but not so much force as to cause damage; the motor was re-installed into the lathe and the drive belt adjusted; WOW what a gorgeous lathe this Lorch is; at last it is running perfectly; it now runs ever so sweetly and will be a pleasure to use.

The grub screw in the drive pulley wasn't totally loose but loose enough for the pulley to set up vibration which was being transmitted by the bearings; it was more of a loud rumble than a knocking noise but now I'm just delighted to finally have completed this extensive restoration; I've now got two outstanding fully restored lathes in this Lorch and the Union Graduate; both have been worth the time and effort I've put in over the last few months; if the noise problem re-occurs on the Lorch I'll modify the stepped pulley to accept a key; I never did like pulleys locked in place with a grub screw only into the shaft key-way but this pulley is on a sleeve making adding a key-way rather more difficult. Now what can I play around with next?

Here are before and after pictures for comparison. It seems such a long time since Big Al kindly tipped me off about this lathe; I'm now happy I decided to pop over to have a look at it.

Thanks Gary for your kind comments; yes the guards have already received a good going over with Solvol Autosol even though show up a bit dull in the pictures; it certainly takes me back to by motorcycle restoring days using Solvol like this again on covers.

Kind regards, Col.