My First Shellac Attempt.

[Paula A]

Most restorers would prefer shellac to the butchery which is danish oil!!

[Retired]

Hi,

I'm pleased the website link is useful for you Paul and you are most welcome.

Regarding how many shellac coats to apply before flatting I think Mark is bang on as there are a number of variables involved. The "Cut" of the shellac will dictate to a great extent how much shellac is applied at each coat. Thin shellac will go on very easy but build up less than thick shellac.

Choice of application also plays a part; rubber; brush or mop? Even different brushes give different results; a course brush will leave a rougher finish than a smooth brush such as a "Mop" and the skill of the person applying the shellac has to be taken into account.

I would apply a minimum of four coats before flatting as flatting too soon there is increased risk of cutting through on corners and edges to bare veneer or timber which must be avoided at all costs. The more coats that can be applied before flatting is better but shellac is not the easiest material to apply as it can't be brushed out the same way that paint can because it sets up too quickly.

I apply shellac just the right side of panic; slap it on and level it quickly then leave well alone; trying to work it like paint will end up with a sticky mess leaving a very rough surface. The trick is to apply enough shellac to give a decent thickness which will allow proper flatting removing all surface blemishes such as tramlines; brush marks and any small bits of debris leaving a perfectly flat; matt surface ready for working with a rubber if a traditional high gloss is required.

As you say Paul; French polishing (applying shellac) is very therapeutic and as long as patience is employed there is no reason a beautiful finish cannot be achieved from the very first attempt ; you've already demonstrated this with your first job which I sincerely hope encourages others to have a go with shellac.

I'm with you regarding Danish Oil Paula but I refrain from commenting on other members projects if they decide to go the oil route because after all it is their project hence their choice of finish. I would never use an oiled finish on any of my sets.

Kind regards, Col.

[Paula A]

I just managed to talk somebody out of using danish oil on a rather valuable 1920's gramophone. When they found out that the slowly crazing shellac finish was 90% of the appeal to collectors and hence a good 60% of the items value they had a serious rethink.

I wouldn't use the stuff on anything unless it's a suitable type of finish say on a wartime civilian utility set. Most 50's were simple stain and cellulose with a high gloss which is easy enough to duplicate with modern varnish, back into the 30's shellac was the norm but way back into the 20's and very early 30's my experience shows a multitude of different oil finishes. Black ebonite was without fail just oiled and tends to dry out. I have used various finishes on guitars over the years and I have to say without exception cellulose is the hardest to do well.

[ed731pdh]

Was given a tip with shellac, dip your dibber in linseed oil first, then apply the shellac. The linseed stops the dibber getting stuck to the job and allows better flow as it works. My shellac work was awful until I went over to using linseed oil.

[Retired]

Hi,

It makes my toes curl Paula just to think of someone contemplating attacking a valuable gram with Danish Oil.

A good and acceptable substitute for Danish Oil to me would be varnish; either matt or satin. I use Wickes varnish on both fitted and free standing furniture I make and it looks good. The downside is the drying time and having the brush technique to apply it well; I've also used gloss varnish and achieved a mirror finish directly from the brush.

A few years ago I made and installed pine wall panelling to our bedroom and used Wickes water based varnish for the first time. I found it pleasant to use and it cut out the smell and fumes compared to solvent varnish and for this application it works very well indeed; For durability though I would use solvent based varnish (turps/white spirit).

Varnish being a surface coating is easily reversible so no harm is caused unlike using Danish oil which penetrates. Varnish was good enough to finish the old Rolls Royce cars with (over paint coats) and I used to have pictures showing craftsmen applying the varnish and rubbing down; many coats were applied but the finish was outstanding.

http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/

A top quality brush which is broken in and looked after is a must for best work and buying a pack of brushes from Poundland isn't the way to go.

Our bungalow is finished in Bakelite Brown with black doors. It must be six years ago that I bought a good quality brush from Screwfix and this single brush has under coated and glossed the bungalow a number of times and still retains useful life. It takes around six weeks to completely repaint the bungalow exterior most of this time is in preparation and I always try to achieve a top class cabinet finish that I can live with. When I stop painting for dinner etc I can now clean the brush in minutes using the "Dandy" system I bought years ago. Once the job is completed and I'm putting the equipment away in storage I always use the Dandy but follow up with a really good wash with soap and washing up liquid spinning the brush to dry it; this keeps the brush like new. I've added details of the Dandy system before but it is worth adding once again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76LnCKYrfLs

I'm interested in your comment about finishing guitars with cellulose Paula. What application method do you use? Many years ago I used to restore motorcycles and would buy small tins of brushing cellulose then sold by Halford's. these tins came with a screw cap fitted with a small touch up brush. as the name implies this cellulose could be brushed and gave excellent results; in later years I switched over to spraying.

The first spray outfit I used was called a "Spray-it" made I think by Burgess. This was a small high volume low pressure (HVLP) outfit and it was brilliant; I once sprayed my VW camper van with it and used it to spray many vehicles. The paint would be thinned about 50/50 and once the knack had been learned it gave a remarkable finish directly from the gun. Cellulose is becoming harder to obtain as the paint available now tends to be acrylics which is readily available. Water based paints are now widely used due to environmental reasons.

You might find the following link of interest Paula; I came across it ages ago and it shows finishing a guitar using shellac.

http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.htm

I have a friend who uses spray cans to finish his vintage cabinets with using spray cans of toner for the base colour followed by spray cans of clear lacquer; his work is to be much admired.

My preferred finish for a radio/TV cabinet is shellac. I can apply shellac in a very confined space; there is no over-spray to worry about; the smell is more pleasant and possibly safer to my lungs than solvents used in cellulose and lacquers; masking isn't usually required and as Paul states the process once leant becomes very therapeutic. The downside is the time taken in applying it; not a single coat as this is rapidly applied but the many subsequent coats that are needed to build up a good thickness. Applying shellac is totally different to spraying and each skill has to be learnt to achieve top results.

Unfortunately we now live in times when everything has to be done yesterday; why spend a lot of time gathering materials and learning how to apply a French polished finish when anyone can visit B&Q or wherever and pick up a tin of Danish oil and then spend five minutes sloshing it onto a cabinet to stand back thinking they have have done a good job. A five year old child could apply an oiled finish.

My objection to oiled finishes is that they penetrate the surface and this is my only objection. I've seen many cabinets finished with Danish oil and they look beautiful but I always feel applying an oiled finish is a cop out; why go to all the trouble to bring a cabinet to the stage of final finishing only to take such an easy way out; to go the extra bit and apply either shellac or lacquer isn't so difficult; it can't be because I can do it and no one taught me.

I'm sorry if I sound to be discriminating against those who do use Danish oil on their cabinets as no offence at all is intended but like Paula I think Danish oil to be an inappropriate finish for radio/TV cabinets. Recently I've spent time reading threads and was very interested in how the cabinet restoration was proceeding; even with me picking up new tips only to reach the final stage where the restorer mentions Danish oil; at this point I stop reading and certainly don't add any comments as I still firmly believe it is entirely up to the owner as to what finish is applied.

If our climate was more settled and warm I would use my compressors and spray guns to finish cabinets in acrylic but as I type it's like a black hole outside again but the wind has finally died away. I have three compressors and a selection of spray guns; I use the big compressor for inflating the car tyres and blowing dirt from chassis using the air gun apart from this all are redundant. I detest this climate with a passion.

We are all different but the main thing is that we enjoy our hobby in a way that suits us as individuals whilst sharing information and tips.

Kind regards, Col.

[Joe]

I agree with all the above except that shellac is time-consuming. That case I made for my Jasonkit tune only took an hour to finish whereas Danish oil takes a day between coats and also has the other issues already stated. The only thing I would use it for is outdoor furniture.

Varnish too takes longer to dry which makes it prone to dust and insects sticking to it.

As for lubricating the rubber, I've heard of that but never done it. I've also heard of putting linseed oil in the shellac to slow down the drying time. This is something else I've never tried as the speed of drying is what I like about it.

Let's not forget that shellac is also handy on chassis. I used it to refix the coils to the former of a DAC90a when they started to fall off and if mixed with fine sawdust is the correct cement for refixing valve bases and top caps.

- Joe

[ed731pdh]

I wouldn't recommend mixing the linseed oil with the shellac, the object is to get your dibber to glide frictionless across the work while depositing down the shellac in a smooth finish. I did a Pye 36 case using this method and the results were excellent. Again, just practice and patience, something that I have never really had but have developed it as case restorations came my way.

Only other thing I recommend is wearing a vinal glove to keep the shellac off your fingers because it is a pig to remove.

[Joe]

I've got a neighbour who, when he was doing National Service, painted his toe-caps with a six-penny bottle of shellac. He also offered this service to his muckers at half a crown a shot.

I think that boot bulling gave me a head start on using a rubber.

- Joe